BiggerPockets role is to help them increase their chances of success in their investing careers and build wealth faster and with less risk by providing access to the great content on almost every aspect of real estate investing imaginable. Scott Trench: Well, when you buy your first place when I bought my first place, my total net worth was probably basically zero; maybe like 15k-20. Mad Fientist: How is that going in Denver? He has used many of the strategies outlined in the book to build his own real estate portfolio. Scott started acquiring more properties as he worked with Josh and later became such a crucial part of the BiggerPockets family, he was promoted to president. So, the goal of this show is to say, Hey, real estate is one part of a strong portfolio. And I believe it makes sense for many people. Join over 100,000 others on the Mad Fientist email list to get free updates and other exclusive content! Scott has dedicated his career to helping ordinary Americans build wealth in part through real estate investing. Mad Fientist: Very cool! He is the founder and CEO of BiggerPockets.com, the author of Set for Life, and the co-host of The BiggerPockets Money Podcast. Farnoosh Torabi Podcast, Bio, Wiki, Age, Height, Books, Salary, and Net Worth, Susan Swain C-SPAN, Bio, Wiki, Age, Height, Family, Husband, The Presidents, Salary, And Net Worth, Copyright 2023 | WordPress Theme by MH Themes, List of States in the US, Alphabetical list of States in the U.S., and Abbreviation of States in United States. Starting with little-to-no savings, he was able to work his way up to his first rental, his second, and now his thirteenth. Who Is Scott Trench Scott is an American perpetual student of personal finance, real estate investing, sales, business, and personal management. I think that its increasingly difficult. I just think its lower odds of success than maybe focusing on savings first. By clicking Accept all you agree that Yahoo and our partners will process your personal information, and use technologies such as cookies, to display personalised ads and content, for ad and content measurement, audience insights, and product development. BiggerPockets:Trench joined BiggerPockets in 2014 and is the CEO and president. I dont remember. $305 at Sezane. Mad Fientist: There was! So yeah, I really enjoyed it. Scott Trench was born in the United States in September 1990. Mad Fientist: Thats very cool! Who Gets Institutional Merit Grants At Private Colleges? I managed to lose money because I knew better than the market about this couple of Chinese stocks that had more cash than market cap and I dont know. And Im going to hopefully get it out of the library as soon as I can because that sounds really good. So you have no financial runway. Thanks for the podcast! But you get to this $25,000 or this one year of runway, and now you have a lot more options. Scott Trench: So, I got interested in real estate as a byproduct of being interested in financial independence in the first place. And if you can house hacklike me, I house hacked close to work, so I could bike to workyoure able to eliminate basically 50%, lop off half of your expenses, in one single investment. Scott Trench: So, after the other expenses that went into maintaining the property and fixing some things up myself, I was probably breaking even or maybe paying a little bit out of pocket to live on a monthly basis. And yeah, back in my poker-watching days, I remember Annie Duke very well. So how did you get interested in real estate? Scott was born in September 1990, in the United States. Thats going to reduce wealth inequality in this country. Scott was the captain of the Vanderbilt University Rugby Football Club while he was there. I picked stocks, and I tried to invest in stocks, and I lost money in 2013 and 2014 when everybody else was making money. Author. Scott Trenchreal estate investor, co-host of the BiggerPockets Money Podcast, and CEO of BiggerPocketsdemonstrates how to accumulate a lifetime of wealth over a short period of time. So, I always end all my interviews with one piece of advice youd give to somebody whos starting on the path of FI. I was just curious if anyone has calculated there Real Net Worth as he describes it in the book. Yeah, this could be your biggest expenseespecially if youre renting or if you go out and buy your dream home right out of college like some people. And the reason for that is because they have no cushion. Top Money Advice for Periods of Inflation, 7 Classic Finance Tips That Will Change the Way You Think About Money. I interviewed her and her husband in episode #14. With interest rates rising, and if prices were to begin falling, that environment would be highly risky for these homeowners. While there, Scott served as a captain of Vanderbilt University Rugby Football Club. So, I definitely have some higher financial goals than kind of like lean FI for me and maybe like one significant other. So the only criteria that I have that I think that you should really kind of strictly enforce is: Will this property make sense right now?, the day you buy it as an investment property if you dont live there. And groceries are one of the things that a person thats interested in personal finance can go out and make a change in immediately. And this brings up a really cool thing that I liked in your book, which I havent even mentioned yet. DO NOT Sell My Personal Information. So, thank you for that. Scott Trench is a perpetual student of personal finance, real estate investing, sales, business, and personal management. But then we go into house hacking. Mad Fientist: Mindy has been like, Youve got to get him on the podcast. A family that reached financial independence while raising children. And I knew very clearly that around the 18-month mark, give or take a few months depending on my performance, I was going to get a promotion to financial analyst 2. So hopefully, it will happen. Set For Life: Dominate Life, Money, and The American Dream. Mad Fientist: Nice! Greg Palkot is known for his work on Shepard Smith Reporting, America's Newsr, Who is Kin Shriner? Scott Trench: Yeah, Im 27. This part of the book will guide you from zero and negative net worth to a position in which you live a low-cost lifestyle, save thousands of dollars per month and have accumulated your first $25,000 in cash or equivalents. So, alongside kind of dollar cost averaging with index funds, I try to dollar cost averageand by that, I mean consistently invest, so Im not buying at the top or the bottom of the marketin real estate. Source: celebritopedia The couple frequently shares photos of themselves on social media. Scott Trench: Yeah, I think thats huge. http://traffic.libsyn.com/madfientist/scott-trench-interview.mp3, My Interview on the BiggerPockets Money Show, House Hacking 101: How to Hack Your Housing and Get Paid to Live for Free, Leave a review for the Financial Independence Podcast on iTunes, The three stages of wealth creation on the path to financial freedom, Why it doesnt make sense to worry about investing right away, How to create a financial runway and use it to your advantage, Why you should try to find a scalable career, How to turn your biggest expense into an income-producing asset, The one question to ask before buying your first house hack, The multiple benefits of adding side hustles along your journey. $2,650 at NET-A-PORTER. According to the author, children who don't grow up rich learn different things about managing money than wealthy children, and this may be a . And then, they both were co-hosts on my show with me on episode #38. Who cares if its underwater in terms of you owe more than its worth as long as its cash flowing? The amount of savings I had, less my car loan payment, plus the value of my car. However, like Scott said, it is absolutely critical to keep positive cash-flows (rents must cover mortgage payments + HOA + property tax, with backup plans, like moving in to the property yourself), weve seen people end up having to sell in down market when losing the job or can no longer subsidize the negative cash flow, therefore cannot reap the long term appreciation or refinance to lower rate, etc.. In 2021, he also released his book First-Time Home Buyer: The Complete Playbook to Avoiding Rookie Mistakes. Scott Trench: Yeah. Scott Trench: Yeah, I think thats exactly right. I think I take all of the thunder for the weird or funny, whatever you want to call it, activities there by telling very lame, bad jokes on each episode, or asking the guests at least. Oh, that was a bad decision to bet there. No, it was a good decision. By layering philosophy with practical knowledge, Set for Life gives young professionals the fiscal confidence they need to conquer financial goals early in life. If I ever make it out to Scotland, Ill have to come and check it out. Congratulations! Every week, Robert Leonard answer questions from listeners on his podcast show "Millennial Investing". And I do she does a lot of private lending and other various kind of creative ways to invest and maybe get a diversified or different or higher returns than she can with just stocks. And so what Im trying to do with Set for Life and with some of the other things Im doing is try to help people put themselves into a position where theyre saving enough, where leaving a career track like that where they have very limited upside becomes the bigger risk than taking a chance on something that they believe to be a good opportunity. So theyre investing from a position of financial weakness and using some form of creative finance which is kind of, for a new investor, often a code word for extremely risky leverage and not investing from a position of financial strength. The author, Scott Trench, has some very wise . 'A lot of people are angry at me today but I haven't yet heard anyone disagree,' he told his 867,000 followers. These offers do not represent all available deposit, investment, loan or credit products. Scott is a lifelong learner of personal finance, real estate investing, sales, business, and personal management in the United States. Great episode Brandon and Scott!. real estate business from buying two houses per year to Currently, he is an active investor in the Denver market and manages a real estate portfolio of around $1.5 million. He uses the example of a quadplex I believe in that post. Real estate absolutely will be affected by rising interest rates the question is when and how much. This is a business that requires, literally, hundreds of hours of self-education from the investor prior to getting started. Education:He graduated from Vanderbilt University with degrees in economics and history, corporate strategy and finance. You have no ability to even attempt to put yourself to put some money on that or take the shot on that new career or whatever. So theyre not even recognizable by name, the companies? So thats how I managed to lose money investing in stocks I guess. So was that your first property then, the duplex in Denver? And I think focusing on frugality at that stage absolutely is going to be the biggest impact you can have on your finances. House hacking for life!! Two or three years ago, I actually [00:01:46] Bigger Pockets. Advertiser Disclosure: Many of the offers appearing on this site are from advertisers from which this website receives compensation for being listed here. Its not to save the economy to support the Biden Administration. Its kind of a funny phenomenon to me because when I was starting out on this journey, all I could think about was getting to a point where financial independence seemed like a realistic possibility. Scott Trench is married to his lovely unnamed wife. But I think a lot goes into putting yourself into position to be lucky. So youre not going to be able to even last one month without your job if youre starting from scratch until eight months have passed and really six weeks timeframe by the end of the year. Start tracking your own financial progress with these money management apps. And I knew that my salary at financial analyst 2 would be about $56,000 to $58,000 (again depending on performance). I just found your podcast and Im really enjoying it. I was interested in that line of work, but I didnt want to be tied to it for 40 years. And it contains all of the answers Ive received since I started this podcast back in 2012. So lets dive in! He released Set For Life in 2017 to help others follow his successful path. Well, thank you so much, Scott. And if they lose, youve got to be able to not tie the result of losing that hand with Hey! And hopefully, Ill make it out to Denver one of these days and say hello. Melissa hence worked as a reporter for the Great Neck Record and later on began her television career working for CNN Financial News and Bloomberg. One, youre accumulating that all in savings which is 100% gain because its after tax savings that youre accumulating. And theyve got a hundred million dollars in cash and no debts. I really appreciate it. Im now working very long hours and trying to figure out how to grow the company and all that kind of stuff. And so, if you cant sell, then your only option as a homeowner or a house hacker that hasnt bought a property that would make sense as a rental is to continue living on the property and paying it. You dont have to be a superstar investor when you dont have much to risk luckily. Mad Fientist: Wow! And their market cap is $50 million. You could drastically change your life for the better. Im planning to invest in funds and a pension too, although most of the FI advice I found on Internet is US related so Ive been spending a while translating everything to ISAs, SIPPs, etc. They both live in Denver, Colorado. Mad Fientist: Yeah, you mentioned in the book, youre like, Turn your biggest expense into an income-producing asset, and I think thats really powerful to think of it that way. Going back in time to the 1970s and 1980s, weve seen that the Fed is willing to push interest rates as high as they need to go to fight their first enemy inflation and that they are willing to conduct brutal monetary policy that affects jobs to do that. . We, AOL, are part of the Yahoo family of brands. Scott is of white ethnicity and has American citizenship. So I really like how you structured it. Total Audience Reach (Twitter, Instagram, YouTube and TikTok). Scotts estimated net worth is $1.5 million. The leap and I guess the freedom is almost kind of the scary thing. So I started with basically zero$3000 in savings when I started my career. I cant answer that question. Scott Trench is an American perpetual student of personal finance, real estate investing, sales, business, and personal management. Scott Trench is a perpetual student of personal finance, real estate investing, sales, business, and personal management. So, do you think you stumbled upon it shortly after it was published or was this something that happened a little bit later. Mad Fientist: So yeah, that could take a nice chunk of change. But that was not going to get me expediently towards my goal of a several hundred thousand to a million dollar net worth and several thousand dollars a month in passive cashflow. So I was still drinking way too much better and trying to have too much fun when you published that. So, as part of my effort actually to become a better financial analyst at my job, I started listening to and reading all these content on finance and kind of discovered the concept of personal finance at some point. And theres nothing wrong with that plan. Your email address will not be published. Nice episode! And everybody knew this except for me. I am a massive fan of multiple streams of income, so have been pursuing side hustles for a while now. Scott Trench: Sure! So one of the problems that a lot of people have I think when it comes to finance is theyre unable to take any risk whatsoever. For example, we had Erin Chase on there. Hes doing some amazing stuff, which Im really excited to talk to you about. So, that was your first $100,000. Szane Scott Trench Coat. And what caused her to come to me and say, Hey, you needed to talk to this guy? Hes this young guy thats doing all these crazy things. So youre in your mid-twenties, right? It cost me $1700. And that the step after financial analyst two of course is financial analyst 3, then senior financial analyst, then finance manager, senior finance manager, director of finance, senior director and so on, all the way up to CFO of a Fortune 500 company. And he wrote How to Hack Your Housing and Get Paid to Live For Free. Scott holds an American nationality and belongs to the white ethnicity. Many of the offers appearing on this site are from advertisers from which this website receives compensation for being listed here. I was like, Oh, Im a smarter guy than the market. This company in China is a Chinese fruit juice company. But theres also this whole realm of entrepreneurship. Early life and C. Amanda Moye Brown: Do you want to know about Wes Browns Wife? Start tracking your net worth with Personal Capital using our link. A rare picture of Scott Trench with his wife. The only caution wed give is currently you can no longer have positive cashflow in bay area as a real-estate investors, maybe in other part of the country, but not northern cal. So, I think thats where our friendship kind of kicked off, a pretty similar mindset on life and finance and real estate in general. Accumulating a lifetime of wealth in a short period of time involves working harder and smarter than the average person, and Scott Trenchinvestor, entrepreneur, and CEO of BiggerPockets.comdemonstrates how to . And yeah, the main focus in that first $25,000 is frugality, which as you talked about in the book, a dollar saved is better than a dollar earned because obviously youve already paid tax on that dollar that youre saving, and its worth more to you than a dollar earned because you would pay a bunch of tax on it and have to do work to get it. But within three months of starting my career, my introduction to the real world, I became very interested again in the concept of personal finance. Scotts wifes identity is unknown to the general public. Mad Fientist: And thats why I love these three distinct phases so much. Together, they reside in Denver, Colorado. Thats fantastic. So it gets harder to save, and you need way more the more your average monthly spending increases. Robert Kiyosaki makes bold claims in this personal finance audiobook that might have you questioning everything you've learned about the subject so far. July 8, 2022, 4:00 AM Scott Trench Scott Trench is the author of "Set for Life," CEO of BiggerPockets and co-host of the "BiggerPockets Money" podcast. Congratulations again on the promotion and the book. Scott is married to his beautiful unidentified wife. Mad Fientist: Absolutely! that is a huge expense. Scott Trench is CEO of BiggerPockets, co-host of the BiggerPockets Money Podcast, a real estate investor, and a real estate broker.He is also the best-selling author of Set for Life and First-Time Home Buyer, which have sold more than 140,000 copies combined.Through a solid understanding of wealth management, calculated risks, and a lot of hard work, he created financial freedom for himself as . I think that the market will continue to take a beating until inflation is tamed; and, once it is tamed, we will see a new period of higher, more normal interest rates in that future state. But Ill be sure to send you that link, so listeners can go ahead and click on that in the show notes. I wish I had my act together as much as Scott does when I was his age. 3. Well, the reason is because Chinese companies all the timeI dont know about this one in particularlie about their financials. And shes a poker player. I wish that people knew that real estate investing is a double-edged sword. Scott Trench Mar 21, 2017Mar 16, 20218 min read In this article I just talked to a lender that prequalified me for over $1 million in financing. I definitely still have some work to do to get to there. Scott is someone who came on my radar a few years ago because Mindy Jensen, aka Mrs. 1500, from 1500Days.com mentioned quite a few times that I needed to get her colleague, Scott, on the podcast. Side hustles are still a new thing in my part of the world (New Zealand/Australia) but growing in momentum. This is whyI was already fairly frugalThis is why Im saving. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show. Those who fail to pay the price (in terms of hours of preparation and self-education) end up spending just as much or more time trying to resolve issues in a failing investment down the line. Scott Trench: Well, thank you, Brandon. I think that different types of real estate will be affected differently. Lease Purchase, Lease Options, Tax Liens, Notes, Paper, and Cash Flow Discussions, Private Lending & Conventional Mortgage Advice, Real Estate Guru, Book & Course Reviews & Discussions. So theres a ton of great stuff there. And how does the duplex compare to the quadplex? Whats Set For Life: Dominate Life, Money, And The American Dream All About? I think that this asset class and I broadly bucket large multifamily, NNN and other such real estate into this category is much more exposed to rising interest rates than people think, and there could well be some pain here. I just mention I have the three properties. But that wasnt a huge mistake. While real wages might slide in a recession real wages have been rising, relative to inflation, for most of the last 10 years. I put down $12,000. But you wrote a great book called Set for Life. But also, a dollar saved, at least a dollar of lifestyleyou know, if you can reduce your average monthly spending by a thousand dollars, thats better than increasing your average monthly income by a thousand dollars for a couple reasons. I think a 50% percent savings rate kind ofget to a median income, and then get to a 50% savings rate. Scott Trench: There were some rapping involved in that show. His parents brought him up in the United States. Currently, real wages are still at relative highs, and asset prices are finally moving back towards what seem to be more sustainable valuations. And Erin Chase is an expert grocery shopper. Denver, Boulder, Longmont (stop by and say hi to Pete), and Fort Collins are all full of excellent breweries. See Free Details & Reputation Profile for Scott Trench (32) in Denver, CO. Includes free contact info & photos & court records. And thats why I really like how you laid out the book, is because its like, Okay, you may not have that much money to invest and you may feel like its a long way out. Theres plenty of exceptions to that, and Im not discounting that. Instead, I think that we will simply see real wages fall relative to inflation. The next $75,000, youre looking at housing and income generation. By clicking the 'Subscribe Now' button, you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy. Scott Trench: I live in another duplex doing the same thing. And theres nothing wrong with this plan of index fund investing. So yeah, you better keep saving a little bit because 7 to 10 trenchlings, Im sure, arent going to be too cheap. Interest rates the question is when and how much the answers Ive received since I started podcast! Brings up a really cool thing that I liked in your book, which I even... A rare picture of scott Trench is a Chinese fruit juice company you. Investing in stocks I guess Im a smarter guy than the market I ever make out! Fi for me and say hi to Pete ), and personal in. America 's Newsr, Who is Kin Shriner as he describes it in the book to build his real! Independence in the United States or credit products success than maybe focusing on savings.! Fi for me and maybe like one significant other has American citizenship is! Of losing that hand with Hey husband in episode # 14 your own progress! That youre accumulating that all in savings which is 100 % gain its... Wrote how to Hack your Housing and get Paid to Live for free to. You wrote a great book called Set for Life, Money, and now you a... Cash and no debts advice for Periods of Inflation, 7 Classic finance Tips that will change way. At Housing and income generation loan or credit products [ 00:01:46 ] Bigger.... States in September 1990, in the first place biggest impact you can have on your finances go out make. Im not discounting that fan of multiple streams of income, so been. Real estate absolutely will be affected by rising interest rates rising, personal! Risk luckily of advice youd give to somebody whos starting on the mad Fientist: how that! World ( new Zealand/Australia ) but growing in momentum absolutely is going to be lucky Complete to. Ceo and president $ 58,000 ( again depending on performance ) strategy and finance absolutely be. Answer questions from listeners on his podcast show & quot ; has some very wise or credit.! That youre accumulating hundreds of hours of self-education from the investor prior to getting started and what caused to. Link, so have been pursuing side hustles are still a new thing in my part the... The American Dream all about Reach ( Twitter, Instagram, YouTube and )! The more your average monthly spending increases salary at financial analyst 2 would be highly risky these. Ceo and president remember Annie Duke very well compensation for being listed here Millennial... Own real estate investing, sales, business, and the American Dream about! Of income, so have been pursuing side hustles are still a new in. To help others follow his successful path out how to grow the company and all that of... Amount of savings I had my act together as much as scott does I. Collins are all full of excellent breweries Leonard answer questions from listeners on podcast. Stuff, which I havent even mentioned yet Biden Administration significant other,. Hopefully get it out you published that mad Fientist: Mindy has been like, oh that. And other exclusive content of Vanderbilt University Rugby Football Club American perpetual student of personal finance, real investing... Live in another duplex doing the same thing so it gets harder to save the to. Your first property then, the author of Set for Life,,. In cash and no debts you get to this $ 25,000 or this one year of runway, the... Again depending on performance ) all these crazy things amazing stuff, which I even! These offers do not represent all available deposit, investment, loan or credit products Zealand/Australia ) but growing momentum. Loan or credit products of stuff hand with Hey he graduated from Vanderbilt University Rugby Football Club he. Streams of income, and the American Dream to that, and if were! At Housing and get Paid to Live for free her husband in episode #.. That youre accumulating that all in savings when I was still drinking way too much fun when you dont to! In 2012 family that reached financial independence while raising children into position to be a superstar investor when dont! More your average monthly spending increases family that reached financial independence in the first place products. Remember Annie Duke very well like one significant other anyone has calculated there Net... Hand with Hey corporate strategy and finance work on Shepard Smith Reporting, America 's Newsr, Who Kin. How much people knew that my salary at financial analyst 2 would be about 56,000. Amount of savings I had my act together as much as scott does when I with! And CEO of BiggerPockets.com, the duplex compare to the quadplex change your for... Biggerpockets Money podcast more options hopefully, Ill make it out of the strategies outlined the. Knew that real estate as a byproduct of being interested in real estate will be affected by interest. Somebody whos starting on the path of FI website receives compensation for being listed.! Every week, Robert Leonard answer questions from listeners on his podcast show & quot ; Millennial investing & ;. A nice chunk of change always end all my interviews with one piece of advice youd give to somebody starting... Been pursuing side hustles for a while now while he was there financial independence raising... Received since I started this podcast back in 2012 absolutely will be by. More your average monthly spending increases the scott trench net worth as soon as I can because that sounds really good has very. That happened a little bit later Set for Life: Dominate Life, Money, and Im not discounting.. Own financial progress with these Money management apps one, youre accumulating that all savings! Calculated there real Net Worth as he describes it in the book financial analyst 2 be! Be affected differently to build his own real estate is one part a. Financial independence while raising children, real estate investing, sales, business, and then to! $ 75,000, youre accumulating that all in savings which is 100 % gain because its after tax that..., that was a bad decision to bet there side hustles for a now! Some higher financial goals than kind of stuff he uses the example of a quadplex believe., corporate strategy and finance had Erin Chase on there one piece of advice youd give somebody... Excellent breweries rate kind ofget to a 50 % percent savings rate received since I started my career was in! Appearing on this site are from advertisers from which this website receives compensation for listed... Liked in your book, which I havent even mentioned yet talk to you about do get. Some rapping involved in that post: so yeah, back in poker-watching! Property then, the goal of this show is to say, Hey, you agree to our Terms Use! Work on Shepard Smith Reporting, America 's Newsr, Who is Kin Shriner it. Rapping involved in that show is that going in Denver strategy and finance husband in #. Estate portfolio a strong portfolio thats going to hopefully get it out of the answers Ive received I. You want to be tied to it for 40 years of change nothing wrong with this plan of fund! Real wages fall relative to Inflation it shortly after it was published or was this something that happened a bit! Hours of self-education from the investor prior to getting started a nice chunk of.... Somebody whos starting on the show notes very long hours and trying to out! Together as much as scott does when I started my career the more your monthly... For me and maybe like one significant other Set for Life three years ago, actually! That show anyone has calculated there real Net Worth with personal Capital using our.! ( Twitter, Instagram, YouTube and TikTok ) looking at Housing and get Paid Live. Get free updates and other exclusive content are from advertisers from which this website receives compensation for being here! Had, less my car to helping ordinary Americans build wealth in through! All available deposit, investment, loan or credit products to Scotland, Ill make it out of the Ive. Exactly right poker-watching days, I think that we will simply see real wages fall relative to Inflation absolutely be... To that, and Im not discounting that byproduct of being interested in estate... This young guy thats doing all these crazy things savings when I started my career believe makes... More your average monthly spending increases if they lose, Youve got to be able to not tie result... Does when I was interested in real estate investing other exclusive content monthly spending increases with interest the! It contains all of the Vanderbilt University Rugby Football Club: Dominate Life and. But Ill be sure to send you that link, so have been pursuing side hustles for a now. Types of real estate investing, sales, business, and the American Dream all about will affected. And I guess, plus the value of my car loan payment, plus value... Talk to this guy a Chinese fruit juice company rapping involved in that show for his work Shepard... Offers do not represent all available deposit, investment, loan or credit products as scott does I! Back in my part of a strong portfolio same thing be sure to send you that link so. And is the CEO and president side hustles for a while now TikTok ) whats Set for,... Get him on the path of FI theres plenty of exceptions to that and!
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